Society of Wild Weasels Newsletter March 2024
CINCWW's Corner
Fellow Weasels,
Our reunion is on track and we have 110 people attending as of 6 March. We asked for and received an extension to get the special hotel rate until 15 March. We have a section to link to the registrations below and Annex A is a day by day schedule with maps. We only have a few people signed up for Saturday golf, shopping or Armament Museum and we have cancelled the deep sea fishing. Please let us know if you want to do any of these activities by emailing at WildWeaselReports@gmail.com. Also if you having any issues registering let me know at Budmanrocketsnow@gmail.com. I will be buying a few cold ones at the Reunion so I hope to see you there.
We have a very good edition for you with Phil Drew talking about his history in the Weasel and ultimately his Command of the 65th Air Division. We also have put his history of the last Weasel Mig Kill in the Virtual Museum for reading. Next Dave Brog has had a great career and he talks to us about his meetings in Israel and how they helped us by giving us captured equipment that allowed us to defeat threats and save lives.
Lastly, we have revamped our Medical section to be part of a combined effort to ask our Congressmen to pass a Funded Veteran Aviator Cancer Examination Study so that the VA will be able to support our members when we have these maladies. We know The AF found higher rates of melanoma, prostate, testicular, non-Hodgkin lymphoma in their study released in May 2021. Now we need to take the next step and get Congress on board to ensure these are designed as preexisting conditions to cut out VA redtape. I will host a Zoom Call on 20 March to discuss step by step how to write, visit or talk to your Congressman to push this important legislation through. We will help you do this! Please go to the Medical issues section of our website and see our step by step plan and talking points for your engagement. We have partnered with the River Rats and others to make this happen!
Very Respectfully
Budman Redmond
Society of Wild Weasels Chief in Charge
YGBSM
FILO
Fallen Wild Weasels
Thomas H. “Tom “ Clark, WW #981, Pilot, F-4C, 31 Dec 2023
Edward B. “Ed” White, WW #12, Pilot, F-100, F-105F/G, F-4G, 12 Jan 2024
Arnold G. “Arnie” Dolejsi, WW #156, Pilot, F-105F, 26 Jan 2024
Marion M. “Hippo” Angel, WW #91, Pilot, F-105F, 9 Feb 2024
Our Condolences to their families, friends, and brothers in arms. Hand Salute! Rest in Peace!
L.A. Bud
Membership Update
Add Your Heading Text Here
We welcome the following new members:
Alexander “Knight” Prevendar, WW #2880, Pilot, F-16
Bruce “Spike” Benyshek, WW #2881, Pilot, F-4G
Matthew “Scout” Johnston, WW #2882, Pilot, F-35
Matt “Zap” Malloy, WW #2883, Pilot, F-15, F-22 AFOTEC CC
L.A. Bud
Surviving Family Members
If you know of family members who qualify, have them contact us at:
LABudF4G@gmail.com
L.A. Bud
Interview with Brig Gen (Ret) Philip Drew
Editor’s Note: Brig. Gen. Philip Drew was one of the initial strike Pilots in February 1965 flying the F-100 into North Vietnam. He would go on to train as a Wild Weasel in the F-105 and flew 100 missions in North Vietnam, culminating with multiple SAMs destroyed and the last Wild Weasel Mig kill of Vietnam. Gen Drew worked and commanded in many operational capabilities culminating as the 65th Air Division Commander. His leadership was essential in building the EC Triad that was so successful in the first DESERT STORM. This is a great story of a warrior and leader.
1) Tell us a little about yourself
I was born in Ky and raised in Indiana and my cousin was a medically retired pilot who encouraged me to go in the Air Force. After watching John Wayne in the movie Jet Pilot I was enamored because he got to fly fighters, got the girl and they paid him. I enlisted as an aviation cadet in 1959. When I graduated in June 1960 I was the #1 Aviation Cadet in ATC. Won the ATC Commander’s Award which led me to fighters. I then went to Luke and advanced fighter training at Nellis and then on to an assignment in 1961 at Misawa, Japan flying F-100s. the Wing was transferred to England AFB but after a short time I was sent TDY to Clark AB, PI. As soon as we got to PI we were sent to DaNang in South Vietnam. “In 1965 I got to fly the initial strikes to North Vietnam as part of the 531st Fighter Squadron flying F-100s.
We returned to England AFB and the entire Wing was PCS’d to Bien Hoa where I flew a lot of CAS in South Vietnam, and I enjoyed that mission. However, 6 months into my flying I was selected to be the Aide to General Charles Bond and I was his Aide for 6 months. He later told me that I suck as an Aide and was going to send me to Europe as a FAC. But, enroute to Europe, a visit to Randolph got me a fall-out F-105 RTU assignment due to someone’s broken Leg. We had 3 single guys in our small classthe class, Joe Howard, Bruce Stocks and me and we worked hard and stuck together like glue. Close to graduation we were informed that there was a Wild Weasel program, and we three were invited to apply. Gary Williard welcomed us and told us to match with an EWO. The funniest part was the “Bear dance” picking the guy you wanted to fly with during our combat tour. Bill Wheeler was my bear, had flown fighters as an EWO at Eglin and was the best EWO a pilot could ever have!!
We went to Takhli where they had a flight of Weasels in each fighter squadron. At Korat it was a single Weasel Squadron. I can’t speak to Korat but we were really able to work with the non-Weasels and create advance tactics and analysis of the enemy. Arrived in May 1967 and we were flying 1 mission a day.
Flew our last mission Jan 1968 and one of many lessons learned. I was nominated for JO of the Year but was not selected by PACAF. A C-130 pilot won it for PACAF, and then he resigned his commission. I was asked if I would accept the award after being beat out by a C-130 pilot. I said no but the chief of Personnel made me go home and sleep on it and I got advice to accept it. I initially didn’t want it. My ego was too big for me but I got great advice and accepted it. My big lesson learned was don’t believe your own press clippings. On orders to go to Nellis and go into the F-111 program. My friends advised me to go to F-105 OT&E and went to Boot Strap and got my degree. Returning to Nellis from College, I was sent to the Command Post working the night shift with Bob Dorrough, another Thud Weasel, where we became best friends. The summer of 1969 I went to Command and Staff with first POWS and had a great time and learned a lot. I then was sent to Washington and Congressional Liaison where I worked for my old Wing Commander at Takhli, Gen. Giraudo. Great experience and I learned-don’t ever run for political office.
Met my wife Mimi because we were social aides to the President (at that time single people were “encouraged” to serve as Presidential aides). She was Navy, so were married at the Naval Academy in October 1972 then three months later I got approved to go to F-4 RTU upgrade at Nellis, to Udorn at the 13 Tac Fighter Squadron Flying F-4s. Flying most of our missions in Cambodia through August 1973. On my last combat mission, and we were ordered to be out of Cambodia by 1200 noon, August 15, 1973–we crossed the border outbound at 1159.
My wife was assigned to JusMAG in while I was up-Country. When I was assigned to Clark AB, in the Philippines, she became a Reservist. We went to Clark and was the Ops Officer of the 90th TFS flying F-4s for a year and then, I became the 3rd Organizational maintenance squadron Commander. Finished that tour and really enjoyed my OMS/CC tour and learned a lot about how great our maintainers are and how they give everything they have for the aircraft and aircrew.
After that I worked in TAC Requirements for a year and became Assistant COS to General Dickson (The Tidewater Alligator) then NWC and Joint Staff. Went to Kadena as Air Division Vice then the 18th Air Wing Cdr. Got Promoted to Brig Gen and back to the Joint Staff until the summer of 1986. Off to the newly created Electronic Combat (EC), 65th Air Division, in Germany. General Donnelly was the USAFE/CC and wanted a strong EC capability in USAFW. Gen. Jack Scheidt set it up the Air Division from scratch, and we just continued to improve upon it, later winning an award at Nellis AFB for the “Best of the Best” for Green Flag 87-3, April 1987.
(2) You flew 100 missions in Vietnam and have been awarded 3 Silver Stars and 6 DFCs, can you share some of your tactics and experiences?
We always worked as a team and would feed information back and forth and it was essential to ensure the strikers knew what we were doing and what the enemy SAM sites were doing. Every mission was focused on protecting the strikers. The probability of getting shot down or killed was about the same. Domer Bridge was my first Silver Star on 11 August 1967 at least 4 SAMs shot and lots of AAA, Bottom line–bridge was dropped, our key was firing strikes and/or finding the SAM sites. It was always good to destroy Russian crews! Summer of 1967 the SAMs hadn’t learned triangulation. Second silver Star was a transformer site near Hanoi and we had at least 3 SAMs, destroyed 2 sites with bombs and then strafed a mobile Sam Site.
Third SS was a concrete plant near Hanoi and had 10 Sams launched at us. We destroyed 1 SAM site and a ground radar. On December 19, 1967 three of our four shot down Migs with our 20 mm and I was giving Bob Huntley a check flight during the combat mission.
(3) You commanded 65th Air Division and was instrumental in providing an Electronic Combat triad using the F-4G, EF-111 and the EC-130. Can you elaborate?
Green Flag was a new concept and I drove us to prepare for Green Flag 87-3 and I enjoyed proving our capability. We beat the Red Forces to a pulp and I knew our concept was solid.
(4) Please share what you learned as a young Wild Weasel that you feel our audience should know.
Unfortunately, I can’t give tactics advice to the F-35 and F-16. But, generally speaking, know the enemy and be prepared for all eventualities. As an example, we had just come off a bombing run on a SAM site and my EWO, Bill Wheeler, saw a Mig at 1 o’clock high. He never saw us coming. As I was firing, we were being fired upon by another Mig in an ambush tactic but we were able to get the Victory and evade the attacker. The lesson was– I always flew with the Gun armed and only used it a few times. I had an instructors at McConnell who had missed a kill because he forgot the master arm
(5) What did I miss?
Be humble even if you believe you are the best fighter pilot in the room, you still have a lot to learn! Always make sure you train how you will fight, train hard and train well.
Editor’s Note: A great interview and a great history of Weasels, flying and fighting and loving what you do! Thanks, Gen Drew, for your leadership and combat expertise! WfW salutes you!
Financials
73854.28 as of 6 March
Medical Update
H.R. 4886 (the ACES Act) had 11 Congressman as co-sponsors in late July; that number stands at 15 today. We’re still working to get co-sponsors in the Senate. The River Rats AMIC’s strategy will be to gather more Congressional supporters. This is all directed to mandating the Aviator Cancer Examination Study, needed to further the investigation into the increased cancer rate in military aviators including potential causative factors. We have revamped the Medical portion of our website to make it easy to support. Our goal is to make this a preconceived condition for VA.
We have made great progress coordinating with Tailhook in this effort. Other efforts are underway to try to garner support from the rotary wing community. March 20th the Society will sponsor a Zoom Call for people interested in writing their Congressman or Senator.
We still have one more opportunity window, legislatively speaking, in the 118th Congress. The online letter-writing part of our future work begins in early March 2024 and goes to April. That’s about 60 days of concentrated member outreach to federal lawmakers. We are supporting the Rats and Tailhook on this! Massed firepower!
–Quack Bear
Editor’s Notes: Last year we as an organization supported this effort both individually and as as the Society. We hope to do that again. We have sample letters, how to contact your reps on the Website and will be asking those with a personal relationship to visit their rep. We need this study so our cancer rates are determined to be a VA coverable condition. Below is our link to our engagement page:
118th Congress ACES Act Engagement Plan March through May 2024 – Society of Wild Weasels
From the Desk of our General Secretary: Sleet!
As many of you know, the Society has several awards to recognize and thank members and even non-members for their contributions to the SoWW, our mission or electronic warfare. Most aren’t necessarily annual awards and can cover a period of time. We haven’t received
too many nominations these past couple of years and since we are coming up on the 2024 Reunion, we’d like to see a burst of nominations so folks can be publicly honored for their contributions, especially for 2022-2024.
Our CINC sent out a NOTAM a few weeks ago outlining the Wild Weasel of the Year (WOTTY), the Wild Weasel Achievement Award and the Wild Weasel Distinguished Contribution Award. The Society also sponsors six (soon to be seven) one-year educational grants available to college or tech school ROTC cadets or active duty pursuing advanced degrees. Nominations should come through the person’s detachment or wing/cc. We also have our Internship and Mentorship programs.
Please check out the Website and By-Laws for criteria and process for each. If you have questions on your nomination, contact WildWeaselReports@gmail.com and we’ll get it figured out.
Your General Secretary
John “Sleet” Sletten
Fellow Weasels –
Your Board of Directors is in need of volunteer Deputies to support each Director. While not labor intensive, these positions are needed to prevent a single point-of-failure situation. Also, for those aspiring to “higher office,” it would be a good opportunity to be mentored by the incumbent and allow for a smooth transition when the 4-year election cycle for that position rolls around.
The Executive Council consists of 5 positions – CINC, Deputy Chief, Secretary, Treasurer and Chief WW Ex Officio (previous CINC). Other Board positions are Director of Military Affairs, Director at Large (represents members in general), History Director, Technical Director and Communications Director. Rolls and responsibilities can be found in the By Laws, Article 5 and Attachment 1, Sections 2 & 3.
Should you be interested or have questions, please contact any board member or email WildWeaselReports@gmail.com. Otherwise, you may get a tap on the shoulder!
Cave Putorium!
John “Sleet” Sletten
General Secretary
Society Updates
Kad Kadlubowski WW# 1870 our Academy liaison has reached out with support for help for the Society. Cadet Squadron 35 is still looking for memotos for their legacy room and while they have received a few anything will be given a place of honor. Kad also honchoed the grant of $750 to the squadron for improvements! Thanks Kad!
Juice Marc JouasWW# 1636 has gracialious offered to support the Air Force 390 EC Sq as a liaison for us. The 390 Sq flies the EA-18G Growler. The Miklos family has donated a grant in honor of George Miklos WW#294 and we will work through the 390 for distribution. The 390 Sq gave a great briefing to Beth Miklos last Friday and that was the decision to link this grant to their squadron!
Uke Uken WW#1657 and Muskrat Mcneese WW#1925 have had the Wild Weasel briefing added to the Luke F-35 curriculum and have attended two graduations of classes. In each of these classes the instructors named a student who best modeled the Wild Weasel ethos! They were presented with a placque for their accomplishments from the Wild Weasel Society. We have issued two grants to each class for $300.
Thunder Thorton WW #2855 has been working with the team to ensure the Reunion is ready as our Eglin liaison. Also I want to add kudos to our volunteer committee: Sleet Sletten WW#1629, Les Matheson WW#1492, PermeDog Perme WW#1756, Arnie Johns WW#1889, Charlie Finnigan WW# 1182 and Ima Cummin WW# 2336. Thanks Guys!!!!
David Melton WW# 2873 interviewed and wrote the article below on Dave Brog’s adventures in Israel! Thanks Dave for your work on this!
We have a new intern! Welcome Mr. Josh Pyne who is very interested in electronic warfare. Josh has already done a review of the website and studied with a review of our WordPress application for changing things. In the future he will work on adding Proven Force to the Museum and supporting our medical engagement. Welcome aboard Josh!
Dave Brog organized volunteers for the Vietnam Anniversary of Character and Courage! The Society of Wild Weasels supported this with a grant and volunteers.
It was a super event and the participation of the Weasels, NAMPOWs, River Rats, & AWCF Vietnam Vets + was magnificent. Dave was central in organizing their participation and in the organizing and participating in both the National Cathedral/Washington Hilton and May Washington Mall VN 50th Events.
Here is the link to the video of the event:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfwVCs8iZHM
Dave Brog Adventures in Isreal!
Editor’s Note: Col (Ret) Dave Brog is a great example of a person who never slows down. His history is a history of the USAF getting smart in Electronic Warfare and like so many Weasels his expertise was honed in Combat operations. What this article points out is that Dave learned early in his career that we had to know the threats and working to get realistic training saves lives. Reading this article was a trip into the history of the Wild Weasel and the system to ensure combat readiness and to understand what Israel has done for the US. This is also the first article Dave Melton WW #2873 has done as an interviewer, great job.
Discussion with Col. (Ret.) David Brog, USAF, concerning three trips to Israel in the 1970s.
Interviewer’s Note: Source material is a telephone interview dated 04 January 2024, and three reports of the trips that Col. Brog had previously written and which he provided to me via e-mail on 18 October 2023. The first trip was in July – August 1970, the second at the beginning of 1971. Both were focused on helping the Israelis develop an anti-SAM capability in the face of growing casualties from SA-2 and later SA-3 systems. The third trip occurred two weeks into the Yom Kippur War in October 1973. The purpose of this trip was to recover SAM and air defense systems the Israelis had captured and bring them back to the United States for exploitation.
Subject's Biography:
Col. David Brog entered the USAF in 1955 out of ROTC at the University of Pittsburgh. After flying school, his first assignment was special reconnaissance over Eastern Europe in the 7405th Support Squadron out of Wiesbaden. After a tour at the Rome Air Development Center, he did a combat tour as a Wild Weasel out of Korat Royal Thai Air Base, flying 108 combat missions against the SA-2 over North Vietnam with the 44th Tactical Fighter Squadron. After the tour in Southeast Asia, he was assigned to the Air Force Directorate of Operations in the Pentagon, during which time the events of this article occurred. He went on to positions involving international partnerships and Foreign Military Sales, including many programs working with Israel. Col. Brog served in his final assignment as the US Air Forces Europe (USAFE) Assistant Director of Operations for Electronic Combat and Anti-SAM Operations. His military decorations include the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Legion of Merit with one Oak Leaf cluster, and the Air Medal with twelve Oak Leaf clusters.
Col. Brog holds a Masters of Science in Education degree. He was a Distinguished Graduate of the US Air Force Air War College, through which he published several papers on tactical operations against SAMs. After retiring from the Air Force in 1982, he worked as a miltary consultant, and was selected to be in “Who’s Who in America” and later, “Who’s Who in the World.” He is a past national president of the Red River Valley Fighter Pilots Association. He is Executive Director of the Air Warrior Courage Foundation, which helps wounded warriors and military families.
I. Tell us a little about yourself and your career, particularly as you were in this timeframe in the early post-Vietnam era.
My career has been SAMs! My first assignment was in Germany out of flying school, and I was flying the Berlin corridor. We were doing recce. One of the programs that I ran, was a program for the CIA, it was a program called Creek Flea. And what we did, we flew up and down the Berlin corridor with special, high tech electronic intelligence collectors. On my first assignment, we had a program, this was back in 1959, in which we used a CIA device – it was a recorder with a handheld device that we poked out a bay window, which was used for the crew chiefs to look for MiGs because we were a photo recce bird – and we were looking for the PRF of the SA-2. We did a lot of recce and we were getting a lot of intelligence data.
After that, I went up to Rome Air Development Center in 1962 and between ’62 and ’64, we used that intelligence data to build the Simulated Air Defence System (SADS-1). It was built at the Verona test range and later came down to Andrews for testing, and I flew the flight test against that thing. That is the SAM simulator that we trained the Wild Weasels against, because we ended up putting it down at Eglin.
In the meantime, I went back in ’64, and between ’64 and ’67, I was flying this special CIA bird, and we were getting all kinds of antenna patterns, power measurements, and everything else of the other SAM systems: the Threes, the Fours; and the Six hadn’t shown up yet. So that’s part of the background. I’ve been playing with SAMs all of my career. Because from there I went to the Weasels and from the Weasels back to the Pentagon. And in the Pentagon, my responsibility was the Wild Weasel mission and the anti-SAM capability with ECM pods and all that kind of stuff.
I came back from Southeast Asia in January ’69. I was in Operations [at the Pentagon] until ’76. I went down to the War College, came back, and was working for Jim McInerney in Foreign Military Sales. I had the F-16 program and all of his EW programs. I was working with all the foreign countries as well, including Israel.
II. What happened on the first two trips? What was the background and what did you do when in Israel?
In 1970 they lost three F-4s to the SA-2 [this was at the end of June]. That’s also when the SA-3 showed up operationally, and hit two of their birds. One crashed. The pilot [Sam Hetz] was killed. The backseater was Menachim Eini, who was a prisoner for three years. He later ran the Lavi program. He was also the guy that I helped create Wild Weasels out of their F4Es. We gave them some of our old 105 equipment to use in their anti-SAM operation. Except they had a big advantage. They could find the sites from the ground sites, too, because they were so close.
Back in ’70, the second airplane [damaged by SA-3] came into a base in the Sinai, Bir Gifgafa. It was flown by Avihu Ben Nun, who later became the chief of the Air Force. Stanley Goldstein was one of his instructors when his group went through George to learn to fly the F4E. Our history goes back a long ways. We went over there and saw that they didn’t have anything to beat the SA-2, so we brought a bunch of ALQ-87s over. We brought some ECM pods over to fight the SA-2 and they worked, but of course, they didn’t have anything against the SA-3.
They were trying to kill SAMs with 500 pound bombs. They didn’t even have any CBUs. We got CBUs over there, we got SHRIKEs over there, so we started helping them get an anti-SAM capability. But the big surprise of course was the SA-3 showing up.
From the e-mailed reports:
“That Saturday night [the evening of the strike in which the two F-4s had been hit], Bob [Beale] and I attended the debriefing of Avihu. We later saw the airplane which had square holes in it vice the round ones caused by the SA-2. This confirmed that it was hit by an SA-3. Until then, the SA-3 had never been seen in the area, even by ELINT. Based on all that we had seen and discussed with the IAF, Bob and I made a couple of major recommendations in our briefing. One was to get them SHRIKEs to go against the SAMs and two, was to give them CBUs to bomb the sites with. In the fall, the CBUs (CBU-24) and SHRIKEs were approved and I went back again to talk Weasel tactics with them [on the second trip in early 1971].”
Continuing from his written report, Col. Brog stated that while on the 1971 trip, he flew “on a jamming CH-53 which was in support of an IAF RF-4C flight over the canal into Egypt. Again, I was only flying on the Israeli side of the canal. It was on this mission that I saw the SA-3 change frequencies from the nominal 9100-9400 MHZ. I saw it go as low as 8900 MHZ and as high as 9600MHZ. It was shifting RF as it was being jammed. When I came back to The Pentagon, I sent a message out to all that we were working the wrong SA-3 RF range for the new pod which was to become the ALQ-119.”
III. What was going on in the USAF at this time [1970-1971]? What was the culture and mood like? And had the focus shifted back to the Soviets?
The USAF was getting ready and training hard. We knew what we had to do, at least from the operations point of view. The Soviets were always the enemy. If you go on to Google, there is a video called “Dance with Death”. It was done by a Russian TV crew. These Russians did a documentary in which they showed the Russians as the instructors to the Vietnamese, the Vietnamese as the shooters of the missiles, and we USAF guys, and Navy guys, as the targets. It ended up being a propaganda film, saying “Look how well these socialist countries work together.” The US Air Attache in Moscow asked me to work with these guys. One of the questions they asked was what I thought about these guys and I said I didn’t like ’em, they were trying to kill me!
IV. Talk about the 1973 trip during the Yom Kippur War
Interviewer’s Note: During this trip, Col. Brog was assigned to a team lead by an Army Lt. Col., Bud La Fon. La Fon saw his primary purpose as returning with a ZSU-23, and the Israeli Foreign Liason had promised it to him without obtaining permission from the IAF chief, Benny Peled, to make that promise.
From the e-mailed report: “Almost two weeks after the war began, on a Friday morning, I was called by an AF intel guy, Matt Foley, and asked if I wanted to lead a team over to Israel to look at some captured Syrian/Egyptian/Soviet threat systems. The purpose was to discuss exploitation and bring some back to the US for exploitation. The Israelis had captured a SA-6, SA-3, ZSU-23 Gundish and assorted other things like Strella missiles and SA-2 and SA-3 missiles. The jewel of the catch was the SA-6 and its missile head. We were to leave out of Dover on the next day aboard a C-5.”
We brought a lot of missiles back. This is what pissed La Fon off. Their head of R&D and logistics was a guy named Joe Maayan. He was one of my close friends. We went down to this base in Egypt after the Israelis had captured that part, and this was their storage for missiles. The war was still going on. We came back to the hotel with the shades down, over a bottle of Jack Daniels, and divided this stuff up. Two for you, two for me, each of the missiles they had there. That’s when the issue of the ZSU-23 came up, because Benny and Joe Maayan asked me if it was okay to keep it since they were still having to fight against it. I said absolutely, we don’t need it right now. Well, La Fon had been promised that thing by this liason guy who was working with him. When that came up the next day in the meeting he said “Hey, I’m giving you all this money!”
From the e-mailed report:
“The next day we had a meeting in Benny’s office. Attending were B/G Billy Forsman, Lt/Cols La Fon and Brog and the rest of our team along with Benny, Maayan and part of Benny’s staff. Benny stated what he was going to do with the dividing up. This was essentially what Maayan and I had worked up the night before. Unfortunately, what Benny said was not the same as the promises from the Army Colonel who was the Foreign Liaison Chief. The sticking point was the release of the ZSU-23. La Fon thought that he was going to get it right away based on a valueless promise from the FLO. La Fon stood up in the meeting and fumed at Peled saying that “My government is providing you with $2.2B in aid and I demand that you give us the ZSU-23.” Poor Billy Forsman was obviously blind sided by La Fon’s remarks and I watched him lean back in his seat and want to hide. Benny’s response was to stand up from behind his desk, wave his arm and say, “Get out of my office. This meeting is over.” Benny had a temper in the best of times but La Fon really pissed him off. As our group left, I went up to Maayan and Benny and said that I would try to get the situation squared away. Meanwhile La Fon was standing at the door, yelling at me, “Get out of there, Brog.”
Later that evening, La Fon met with me and said that he was going to have me court martialed because I was interfering with his mission to get the systems back to the US for exploitation. I told him that we would probably get the ZSU-23 in about one month, after the IAF did its exploitation. La Fon didn’t like that and insisted that he was going to bring me up on charges. I told him that if he felt justified, go ahead do it.
La Fon had wanted to get assigned to a JCS office headed by a good (AF) friend of mine (Gil Shortt). He knew the story from Israel. He asked me what I thought. I gave a thumbs down and La Fon didn’t get the assignment. I never was brought up on charges. Billy never lost his status with the IAF. Benny was a fighter pilot and knew that Billy was one. On occasion, I would see Billy, once in Stuttgart where I think that he was USCINCEUR Intel, and we would joke about our old friend Bud La Fon.
I brought an SA-3 back that is out at the desert. We got the ZSU-23 [later] that is out in the desert. There is an SA-2 that is down at Eglin, a real one. We brought a lot of things back from the Israelis.
V. What was the perception of these updated Soviet systems at the time? Were they a sort of "Boogey Man"?
“No, once we got our hands on the SA-6- in fact, I’m not sure the Six had that big an effect. The Israelis didn’t lose that many in ’73. More of it was from Triple A. In fact, it was the Israelis who worked with us to get the settings changed. We sent a bunch of ALQ-119s and we had settings for the SA-6 in there but they were wrong. Once we captured the SA-6, we realized the settings in there would have been a beacon. So we took the settings out of the pods and the Israelis didn’t have anything but the radar warning systems and their eyeballs to evade the SA-6s. They were pretty successful at that. When we got that thing to Wright Patterson to do the full go-ahead on it, we found out we could beat it with ECM.”
Interviewer: Was it the ZSU that was taking the toll on the IAF?
That was taking a good toll because we didn’t have any jammers up there. But there was also the normal – if you get down into low level work you’re going to be hit by other AAA – and the SA-7, the infrared thing, did some damage. What the Israelis did with their A4s, they extended the tailpipe out, so that if the SA-7 came up against the tail, it wouldn’t hit the airplane, it would hit this piece of metal tailpipe that was at the end.
But we didn’t look at them as a Boogey Man. In fact, several of us in the Pentagon knew from intel data that the Russians were never ten feet tall. In fact, you’re seeing it now in the Ukraine. They were not the big Boogey Man that everyone thought they were. We knew their capabilities. We got intel data from various sources that these guys were not the best. The Israelis proved it in ’70, when the Egyptians were losing their ass to the Israelis. The Russians said, “Well, we’ll show you how to do it.” Well, they sent five airplanes up [with Russian pilots] and they lost four of them. One of them who shot down at least one was Avihu Ben Nun. I’m still in touch with Avihu. We’re good friends.
Interviewer: How effective was the SA-3?
Well, it got two airplanes. One of them was Avihu’s. But he brought it back. One of them made round holes in your airplane, the other made square holes in your airplane. This was not the SA-2 holes. [Laughing] I saw a lot of airplanes come back with SA-2 holes!
VI. What was the overall relationship between the USAF and the IAF?
The USAF really had a great relationship all over. I wasn’t the only one. We had air to air guys and we had a super relationship between the two air forces. I was the mail man that would carry information back and forth between TAC, USAFE, and Benny Peled, who was running the Israeli Air Force. We had a great relationship with them, and there was a lot of respect.
I worked with Col. Jack Chain to set up what we called Airman – Airman talks, and that’s where the opportunity for the Israelis to come to Nellis to fly against us. [Interviewer’s Note: This was during the exploitation of the HAVE DOUGHNUT MiG-21 that Israel provided to the United States after receiving it from an Iraqi defector.] The guy on the Israeli side of that was Avihu Ben Nun. So there has been a lot of connection with the Israeli Air Force in the things that we’ve done. A lot of cooperation. We learned a lot from them and they learned a lot from us.
Even later, when I still had my clearances, I was consulting with Israeli Aircraft Industries. We were doing some tests out of China Lake with an anti-missile system that they had. There has been a lot of cooperation going on.
VII. Does the IAF train full Wild Weasel crews?
No, they don’t. That’s one of their missions. They don’t have Weasels like we do. They have a capability. Oded Erez was the first guy that I trained to be a Weasel over there, and he was the Deputy Chief of Intelligence. They did their own missions, but I showed them what Weaseling was.
VIII. What was this like for you on a personal level? You're Jewish, you had a lot of friends with the Israeli Air Force, it's the Holy Land, it's your people's ancestral homeland. What was it like being over there, knowing it was under attack?
Well, it’s very interesting, because I was not selected for going over there because I was Jewish. Nobody cared. It was that Bob Beale and I had flown Weasels out of Korat and we knew the systems and that was it. We went over there as experts in our business.
Just as a small sidelight, I do have family over there. In fact, one of my cousins was the head of the IDF, Defense Minister, and later Prime Minister, it’s Ehud Barak. Although I don’t agree with him politically, I’ve been close to him since he was a Lieutenant. The first time I ever went over there was on a visit from Wiesbaden, when the chaplain set up a visit for a lot of us Jewish guys in 1959. When I was over there in ’70, he was one of my escort officers. I have a picture of the two of us at the Wailing Wall with our prayer stuff on.
IX. What are your thoughts about the current war situations, between the Russians and Ukraine, and between Israel and Gaza, Hezbollah, etc?
The Israelis have a problem, in that they have to dig in. The way Gaza is dug in there, the Israelis get slammed because of civilian deaths, but the Gazans put those civilians in position to get killed. The Israelis have to be very careful in how they go after these sites and these people. Unfortunately, there is still a great deal of anti-Israel antisemitism, and this is a good chance to slam the Israelis. The Israelis have a very tight line to walk. In my mind, from a military point of view, the Gazans have to help their own people or the world has to understand that there is going to be a lot of Gazans killed in order for the Israelis to keep from getting slammed all the time.
Interviewer: I can’t think of any scenario where an army has been forced to continuously re-supply their enemy while combat is still going on.
Yeah! Absolutely!
Interviewer: Is Israel totally dependent on America for resupply of smart bombs? Do they not have any domestic production capability?
They have capability, but it’s the numbers they need. They’ve got good weapon systems, but it’s the numbers. If you’re flying a lot of missions and you need certain weapons, and you also need the air defense systems. I don’t know how many they can build for the Iron Dome.
Interviewer: The ability to cut off resupply gives America total leverage against them if the United States chooses not to be their friend.
I don’t think the United States will put itself in a position to not be a friend of Israel. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East
Interviewer: What about Russia -Ukraine?
I think the Ukrainians are showing what I said earlier – that the Russians are not ten feet tall. I think the Ukrainians can beat them if they have the right support.
Word from Willie Dave Brog for a great review of his Isreali missions. Your history is a history of Electronic Combat in the USAF. Thanks!
Wild Weasel Reunion 11-14 April 2024 at Fort Walton
We have 110 people who have signed up for the 2024 Wild Weasel Reunion in Fort Walton Beach at the Island Resort Hotel, and we will be seeing the 33rd Fighter Wing which flies f-35s. We will have a great schedule for people, Eglin has a multitude of Wings and we will see as many of these as possible. We appreciate our volunteers who are part of the reunion committee! You have until the 15th to get the Island Resort Hotel Weasel rate. We will be emailing everyone in the next three weeks to confirm your participation and banquet picks.
Wild Weasels Reunion 2024 – Society of Wild Weasels
Wild Weasels 2024 Reunion Registration – Step 1 – Society of Wild Weasels
Many people have asked for an attendance list. You have to be logged on to review it. We put it behind the firewall!
Links of Interest
In this section we will periodically scan links for reading recommendations.
ACES ACT
Legislative Awareness – Red River Valley Association, Inc. (river-rats.org)
Cancer incidence study
AARGM Missile Status
Northrop Grumman’s AARGM-ER moves into low rate initial production – Aerotech News & Review
Next Issue
(1) Interview with Paul “Sluggo” Meyer WW #2562 on advanced technology
(2) Interview with Major Jacque Vasta the Commander of the 35 Cadet Squadron
Society of Wild Weasels, P.O. Box 877, Silver Spring, MD 20918